First, I completely agree on reducing duplicated effort, but I have a few questions. Let me know if you want to move this discussion off list or feel free to just answer these off list.
First, being new to the Ruby on Mac eco-system:
What is the timeline for merging rucola into HotCocoa vs extending HotCocoa to have the functionality that is present in RubyCocoa rucola ?
What are the major blockers/good places to start looking to help out the MacRubyification of the rucola framework ?
Is rucola a command line only generation framework, or will there be support for creating projects in Xcode as well ? My current focus as a new user is helping to smooth the transition for other new users from Obj-c to Ruby development. Being able to stay in Xcode and use standard templates and IB for initial development really helps ease the transition. Command line generation is fantastic from the 'coming from Rails' perspective, but not so great for the coming from Xcode perspective, where you expect this to be handled by targets and build steps.
I've been on both sides of this, even having written my own hotcocoa like framework for ruby gtk at one point that never ended up getting released. Now I'm a bit spoiled by IB and bindings and will tend to avoid hand coding UI's unless they need to be dynamic, in which case projects like hotcocoa provide a fantastic interface.
From the testing perspective: I've only tried naive tests with the standard test::unit style so far but everything seems to be working. What are the missing/broken parts that I haven't run into yet ?
I understand re: including testing appearing to be supporting it. Could that be reduced by adding comments to the effect that some things may not work to the template or better documentation on what is supported ?
My main concern here is that people like me who would want to try out MacRuby may have to replicate the admittedly limited integration work and snooping that I've done here (since it is not obvious that it isn't supported, so of course you go to try it out), replicating the effort and running into a disheartening wall anyway. Or worse, they could choose not to go beyond initial experiments with MacRuby due to the lack of apparent support for testing. So either way, the current state of testing should probably be addressed somewhere with a call to arms :)
- Dylan
On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 3:31 AM, Eloy Duran
<eloy.de.enige@gmail.com> wrote:
hmm for once I don't fully agree with Eloy :)
I'm sure we've disagreed before ;-)
But, on the long run this should all move to Rucola to provide one piece that pulls it all together.
It's a small details but I think we do need a solid testing framework in XCode too. Not everyone will use Rucola and therefore offering a great test solution for both tools would be great.
Rucola has always been about allowing Ruby devs _and_ xcode users to use it without knowing the difference. Also, Rucola/HotCocoa will come with MacRuby, so they can use it without knowing so.
I don't think Eloy was against such thing but I thought it was important to mention it.
I'm against maintaining duplicate stuff. People should just use the code which has been battle tested and has added facilities to make it easier, even if they don't know what it is their using in the bakcground. Ie, the test helper would just require the test case helper, the user doesn't need to know where it actually lives. Adding this to the project template makes people think they have to add facilities themselves imo.
Eloy
On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 1:18 AM, Eloy Duran
<eloy.de.enige@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dylan,
So, I've been mucking about with MacRuby lately. It's been fun so far. Thanks to all the devs for this great project.
Welcome!
I'm a pretty firm believer in unit testing my Ruby code. I love how Ruby on Rails and similar frameworks nudge you in the right direction by baking in an existing testing infrastructure.
Great, we agree! :)
I've got testing pretty much figured out and was wondering if the team would be open to modifying the basic Xcode project template to add unit testing, with a stub test and test_suite file to get started. This would also involve creating a framework for any objective-c code that the user writes so that it can be included in both the .app and the test files.
Well, unfortunately atm it's not that easy. Because we currently can't both run test::unit or minitest properly. I know the test::unit, which is currently in macruby's trunk, works work the greater part, but it's not ideal.
I have been working on this area for a while now, getting a little closer every time. This work is part of Rucola, which at some point will merge with HotCocoa and will provide a classic layout as you are accustomed to by frameworks such as Rails.
At this point, the test framework which we can fully run is Bacon, which is what I'm gonna base the rest of my current work on. However, once we can fully run minitest/test::unit we'll support that as well. More importantly right now is a working mocking and stubbing lib. My choice is Mocha, but MacRuby is not mature enough yet to do all the fancy meta stuff that is needed for this.
So for the time being, I'd say cool let's add it to the project template! But, on the long run this should all move to Rucola to provide one piece that pulls it all together. If you are interested on working on this, please contact me directly. Anyone can do that btw.
Cheers,
Eloy
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